hai all...some more views of others....
"I'm not saying people should do "all and everything" together. But for
me each one should be entitled to get in whenever s/he likes to and in
whatever s/he likes to, with no possible exceptions.
If you don't ASK for privacy, you'll sure get it.
If you ask for it, it implies you're hiding something that I shouldn't
see. And THIS is as unhealthy as "living in each other's pocket"...
And... Yes, "perfect" do exist. Almost. Within a tolerance range. ;-)
And yes, there are mistakes one simply cannot make. You know that short
story about the broken plate and the apologies, I assume... or the other
one about a mother driving a nail in the wall for every misbehavior of
her son and then explaining him what it is.
"Irreproachable" is absolutely easy for me to find.
But yes, each to his/her own. My experience is different than yours...
APPARENTLY. I would bet that if we were to TALK about it around a
campfire it wouldn't be THAT different. It's the problems with words."
"So many welcome perspectives illuminating so much! Our shared interest
shows how universal and utterly human it is. I hesitate to add any
more perspectives, most have already been introduced. As Erich Fromm,
said years ago..
" There is hardly any word which is more ambiguous and confusing than
the word "love." It is used to denote almost every feeling short of hate
and disgust. It comprises everything from the love for ice cream to the
love for a symphony, from mild sympathy to the most intense feeling of
closeness. People feel they love if they have "fallen for" somebody.
They call their dependence love, and their possessiveness too. They
believe, in fact, that nothing is easier than to love, that the
difficulty lies in finding the right object, and that their failure to
find happiness in love is due to their bad luck in not finding the right
partner. But contrary to all this confused and wishful thinking, love
is a very specific feeling; and while every human being has a capacity
for love, its realization is one of the most difficult achievements. (in
Man for Himself, 1947, p. 13)"
"You are correct that many people become addicted to the pleasurable
effects of falling in love. I know of quite a few men and women who are
quite open about their desires to fall in love again and again.
Unfortunately they continue doing it with other people and not their
respective partners. I believe that whilst the decrease in serotonin is
usually associated with the onset of depression (this can also be a
factor in our desire to seek out new loves to offset the depressive side
of our nature) it is offset by the increase in dopamine. Dopamine can
also be produced in the brain in other ways and not just be "falling in
love" or artificially but also by the simple act of smiling.
Smiling
either because we are happy or because we want to be happy will "trick"
the brain into releasing both dopamine and also serotonin and we will
feel much better about everything in our life. Smiling is truly
contagious not only for our brain and body but it can have a positive
impact on our attitudes and on the lives of those around us. It is a
wonderful free drug and the more we do it then the easier it becomes."
"I agree...love is perceived differently by men and women...by children
and adults...in india and US...two different communities or religions
etc...like this if we look at every angle 'every individual' perceives
this damn thing (LOL) differently...that is how it draws the attention
of every one, plays a key role in our lives...and worth discussing...not
just by few...by people of all places, religions, genders (we have not
heard from homosexuals and transgenders yet!!), ages etc...so that we
come out of our wells!
good points on unconditional love...between couples there can be
some secrecies...not with respect to their relationships (with or
without emotion) with others...but on other issues...e.g "I don't want
to tell my wife about the help I did to that person as she can not take
it in the right spirit!"...like this there can be many...it might
involve people or not...
your discussions clearly bring out the difference
in experiences...yes...some need some space in some aspects...e.g
husband may not like his wife's some of the activities on social
networks...he might perceive it to be harmful...but she might not
perceive it so...so, she might demand that space...some keep their
passwords for their email ids, websites etc to themselves...not because
they hide something...just because they feel it is their personal, and
that is how it is...some people in love do not like to share certain
things with their lovers or spouse...hmmm...we have all types of
differences!
I strongly feel everything happens inside the brain...all
behaviours originate from there...all differences originate from
there...of course, the social systems and related group behaviors,
cultures etc also have their impact in learning and changing or creating
new behaviours, beliefs, perceptions etc...but I want to know more
inside the brain as that is what is not visible outside or not known to
many...the other social element is visible, experienced and discussed
widely in books...so, I like your points!...obviously, such thirst never
gets quenched...so would wait for more!..LOL!"
"This is a brave endeavor to introduce a deep and abstract topic in the
field of psychology. You have my admiration. I am going to try to share
my thoughts from psychological point of view. Attachment is an important
factor in interpersonal relationship.
Bowlby identified 3 kinds of
childhood attachment to caregiver that seems to affect the child's
future relationship: secure, insecure, and no attachment. Love as
Attachment is probably the most common form. With attachment, a child
experience "stranger" effect and separation anxiety. Due to attachment,
we separate strangers, acquaintants, friends, and intimate circle.
Due
to attachment, we also experience anxiety, jealousy, possessiveness, and
grief. Infatuation and parental love usually have loads of attachment
in it. What inconditional love mother don't experience pain when her
child experience pain? This is the "hurt" part of love, the thorns of
the roses. WHen we are "in love", we experience the high of the heaven
and the pain of hell, don't we? We are very possesive, obsessive, and
compulsive (my friend's mother told me that she knew when her son was
"in love" during adolescent because he would wake up before the sunrise,
would do chores without being told to, and was very thoughtful to
others.
Then, there is the sexual attraction part. The Courting and Mating
routine that we share with animal world. This is the other factor that
create Infatuation. It's physical attraction based. This love is what
99% of love songs talk about, the honeymoon period, the beginning level
of relationship.
Another kind of love is what people call Spiritual love, God's love,
Mystical love. Realizing the limitation and pain from Attachment, it's a
attachment-free love. Why limit oneself with infatuation with one
person or one group, why don't we infatuated with the whole world, with
life itself, with the universe? This is the love of Buddha, Jesus,
Kahlil Gibran or Rumi. Why limit our intoxication with parts of the
universe if we can be intoxicated with the whole universe? Leave the
attachment, love your children, others, yourself, the whole universe.
"We can not love what we are attached to" You must be free first to love
freely without getting stuck by your attachment.
Be in love with life itself, get drunk with it, get intoxicated with being "in love" with whoever and whatever.."
"I write this as blindly as I can and without the influence of what has
been written before me, for I see that because of the topic there are
many opinions, and I would like to give mine without pressure of what
has already been said. I believe that love is nothing more that an
agreement of one to care for something or someone.
It is a choice and a
mental contract, that is independent of all else, but interdependent in
most cases of an invisible contract of conditions that are created by
our ability to scaffold the psyche of our past experiences. We attempt
to associate love to other things, because our minds are not able to
fully understand love.
We write what love is like, and what it is not
never having a universal definitive language nor definition of what it
is. I think that love is elusive and pending on the stage one has
arrived in life could determine their ability to illuminate a shadow of
what they think they see love to be."
"Although I've mentioned this in other group
discussions, it might be appropriate here. It was while going through
divorce that I had a mystical experience. (See full article at http://pennycohen.com/Penny/My_Mystical_Experience.html)
To make a long story short, after crying hysterically with these
animalistic, earth wrenching sounds coming out of me, I laid down in
bed. It felt like every bit of my being left my body. In total silence
I felt this radiance surround me, like soft pins and needles massaging
my skin. Then I felt this incredible warmth and love enter into me. I
remembered thinking "This is the feeling of love without having someone
to love. This is what unconditional love is. It's love that's received
when we're open to it. And it has nothing to do with loving anyone
unconditionally." I then thought, "This must be what divine love is."
"After many years of researching that experience, I realized that this
was a love of opening to my Higher Self. The love within myself within
Oneness and it's everlasting when I stay open to it. Again, it has
nothing to do with anyone else. However, when two people are open to
this love, and receive each others' energies, that's when there's
"bliss." To me, that's what being "in love," is all about"
"You have interpreted correctly what I wanted to say. I certainly do not
investigate what my husband does online, nor does he bother with my
online. But I can well imagine that there are jealous and possessive
spouses/partners who would. Then again a marriage or partnership where
there is jealousy and possessiveness is not a relationship by a long
chalk.
Another aspect is that no adult woman should be looking for a man "to
look after her". A husband is not your Dad. There are sad
cases.....some time back I was out with a friend of mine, and she said
"must drop in for a few moments to see Elizabeth. She was widowed some
months back. We"re all trying to give her a hand as never in her life
did her late husband allow her to deal with household bills etc. so she
doesn't even know where to start with the electricity bills, dealing
with repair men, the water company etc...." Can you imagine a spouse
infantilizing the "other" to that extent. How selfish!
He isn"t your girlfriend either, and it isn"t his job to listen to the
type of brainstorming conversation you might have with one or other of
your girlfriends. Watch his eyes glaze over if you start comparing the
merits of different brands of underwear, hair products, etc.
Love is "letting go", letting the "other" just be"
"This is such an interesting topic and is fundamental to our very
existence. Some years ago I heard the expression "unconditional love"
and at the time I thought that this was indeed a description of "true"
love but now when I examine it with hindsight I can see that sometimes
it does not make sense.
Should I love someone unconditionally who beats
me or abuses me? Should I love someone unconditionally with no
conditions attached at all such as respect and integrity? Finally after
many years I was able to see a different view of "unconditional love"
and I believe that it has little to do with other people. There is one
person in our lives who we should love without conditions attached and
that person is ourselves.
We should learn to love oneself with all the
flaws and disappointments about our character and nature and failures in
life. We can learn to forgive oneself because we are only human and our
journey in life will always be difficult. Yes, indeed when we can love
ourselves without any preconditioned or conceived expectations then we
are truly developing a deeper understanding of our existence.
Although
it may only be brain chemicals essentially we are an organism with many
interesting natures and we should investigate ourself deeply"
"I believe we can have unconditional love for an abusive person at a
distance. I don't believe love has anything to do with forcing oneself
to be close to anyone. Sometimes we need to slip out the back to love
unconditionally"
"I believe enlightenment, or that state of everlasting love is not an end
result but a daily practice of processing our thoughts, beliefs,
feelings, speech and actions to open to receive and share that love.
The more we do that the more we stay in that on an ongoing basis."
"your last post is an almost perfect example of what I alluded to as "the problem with words".
I surely agree with many of your statements. You're using different
words now, like in "I certainly do not INVESTIGATE what my husband does
online". Who would?
But if you were to get close while he's online and you'd notice he
closes some browser's pages, or turns the computer off, I'd bet you'd
notice... AND it'd be some sort of a "signal". Or else, your "complex
equivalence" for "marital relationship" is VERY different than mine.
I won't even discuss "jealousy and possessiveness", because they're
words that could have literally INFINITE nuances of meaning... as almost
any other that's being used in this topic.
Meanwhile, I TOTALLY agree with the part about "looking after" the
partner, just underlining that it goes BOTH ways. There are way too many
women treating their partners as if they were babies.
Yet, "caring"
is a basic foundation of "love", at least as I understand it, so that
there should be some sort of continuous feedback and adjustment.
What I'm trying to say is that love, especially in a love relationship,
is ALSO a COMMUNICATION PROCESS, with continuous "communications and
feedbacks" loops. And this is a part of it that is way too overlooked,
I definitely agree with the concepts in your post. Yet, to me
they relate more to a love RELATIONSHIP than to love in itself. What I
mean is that your questions, to me, sound more like "Should I start/keep
a relationship with someone who beats or abuses me? Should I start, or
stay in, a relationship without my highest values (like respect and/or
integrity) being fulfilled?". And of course the answer is "No!"...
And I agree with all the part about unconditionally loving oneself .
your quotation is IMHO quite good, at least in the first part.
Many posts ago, you stated that "love is a
choice". I have to say that I kind of agree. Love in itself maybe is a
feeling, a sentiment or whatever that IS present in our self. Yet, to
start a love relationship and COMMIT TO IT with all one's being
definitely IS a choice, and when there's assumption of responsibility
for it (which usually comes from an awareness of it... and of the
reasons for it), then the relationship can last and endure storms and
survive... it will, at least, match my own values, I mean
My two cents again...
"There are women who do baby, or try to baby, their husbands, same as those who baby their adult sons lol.
In Ireland you"ll hear people remark about such a relationship / "she even stirs his tea for him".
Re switching off the browser if I appeared beside him, well, maybe he
might be about to order me a fine diamond ring and wants it to be a
surprise. But I know what you mean, of course. "Oh horror, maybe he"s
chatting that buxom blonde down the road" (she doesn't stand a chance in
hell. I am a hard act to follow LOL).
And I agree too about commitment, indeed I am always going on about it.
An awful lot of people sail into the marriage (the dress, the flowers,
the music, the cake, the jollity) and do not think about what they are
really doing.
Caring is indeed a two-way street. Inter-dependence, not co-dependence.
Indeed, here we online have online textual communication, so there will
always be room for mis-interpretation. But, hey, we're doing our
best...
"I agree, love is a choice. And if we want to love someone...and no one
shows up...we can find someone and attribute the things we want...to
him/her...and decide to love."
"I really like your sense of humor.
Though, I wasn't necessarily thinking of "Oh horror, maybe he"s chatting
that buxom blonde down the road". Even if he WERE chatting her, it
wouldn't mean anything bad just yet... I don't jump to conclusions,
usually (unless he had ALREADY chatted that and others buxom blondes up
and down the road in a certain way, of course...
What I'd think
would be "Hmmmm. What is he hiding from me? And why?". As many other
human beings, I do NOT like secrets (surprises fall in the same
category. If you're caught, you'd better say what you're after, like
"You'll see in 'n' days". And I won't forget...
BTW, let me generalize here... MY experience is that women like
"surprises" like fine diamond rings. BUT they want to know they'll like
it... and their men too, 'cause if they don't it'll mean troubles .
So I found out that the best way to do it is to casually walk in front
of the jewelry, and when she says "Oh, how lovely that diamond ring is!"
you just lead her in and buy it. THAT would be a surprise!..
"That's why I say it should take time to get into a love relationship,
and that BOTH are entitled to know the best AND (especially...) the
worst of the potential partner. Once you know who you're dealing with,
you can make an educated decision... which won't keep you from making
mistakes, but hey, we do our best... and keep checking along the way."
"Absolutely! I have always thought that we need to choose to be with the
one that has the particular problems we can accept. I actually think
most of the time, folks choose a partner who they attribute to them what
they want...that person figures out what they want and attempt to even
provide that for a while...and that may be why I cry at weddings"
"I just love surprises, and secrets do intrigue me so. heh heh.
I so agree with you that one should be aware of the best, and the worst
(I really would prefer no "worsts") before entering a marriage or
partnership. Problem is that the career abuser and individuals of that
kind make very sure that one is not aware of what they are like, and
they can present as the most normal, indeed likeable, people imaginable.
They can keep up that "mask of sanity" for a while, until it is too
late. So all too often one does NOT know with what one is dealing and
therefore a decision can in fact seem like the right one. It's all a
bit difficult.....
Leaving that scenario aside, I suppose it depends on what is meant by
"problems". Some people go mad if the spouse leaves the cap off the
shower gel bottle."
ok guys....more later...
rams
It is not uncommon for people to meet in the venue where they study, or are engaged in work etc. Maybe some do meet on cloud nine, but that is hardly a good basis for a future long partnership!
. It is most constructive to have the same interests, or at least some of the same interests as one"s spouse. And also for each spouse to have other interests.
I think this is stating the obvious>
"To me deep love in a couples relationship ensues when there are no judgments, criticisms or demeaning accusations".
Equally I can tell you that any couple who tells you they never have a little tiff or quarrel are lying"